Comment Meta

[amaresu]

Femslash Mini Meta fest was an utter fail this year. And I'm still not in a place where I could do it, so I purpose Comment Meta. And let's have it cover all things female and fannish. However you define those.

How it works

1. Post a meta topic in a top level comment. Use the subject line for the meta subject and expand as you want in the body of the comment. Or don't.

2. Repeat Step 1 for as many meta ideas as you have.

3. Comment on other meta topics.


It's kinda like a kink meme, only with meta. Feel free to browse the mini meta tag for ideas.

This is meant to be about as low pressure as it comes. Feel free to write on your own journal/Tumblr/blog and link back here. Respond with as little or as much as you want. This post will remain open indefinitely, so please track it if that makes things easier for you.

Comments

Re: Lord of the Rings: Female Characters

[havocthecat]

Why are they so underused in fandom? I'm not in LotR fandom, so I wouldn't know.

Re: Lord of the Rings: Female Characters

[tamsin]

From what I've seen it boils down to disinterest and/or dislike/hate. I was hoping that someone could point out a more charitable explanation.

Some "Reasons" I've read:

Arwen: a trophy bride, wet blanket, dreary, is so forlorn, stood in the way of Aragorn, spoiled princess, a gold-digger, selfish, too clingy, deceptive


Galadriel: doesn't count as a woman because she "was practically a half god, immortal super being. She may as well have been an asexual twenty foot tall, fire breathing preying mantis.", cold, only a mother figure, creepy, so dominant and smarter than Celeborn


Eowyn: emotionally crippled, bitter, doesn't have a purpose, is a man in skirts, she whines too much, sniveling little wannabe, self-centered, an irresponsible, fame-seeking deserter


Lots of misogyny and die for my ship. I'll stop now before I depress myself.

Re: Lord of the Rings: Female Characters

[ilthit]

Good heavens, I haven't really ran into those particular expressions of character hate myself. Then again, I'm very hobbit-centric when it comes to LotR, so I would have only heard of Rosie-hate - and that I surely have bumped into, since she had the audacity to be Sam's sweetheart and part of the reason Sam and Frodo were separated in the end. I solved this problem by only hanging out with fans who thought Rosie was awesome and wrote lots of OC-like fic about female hobbits from the family tree.

I have written some Éowyn fiction in my time, but found Arwen and Galadriel more difficult to write. Galadriel is so awesome and awe-inspiring that I can't really get into her head, even though I think she's absolutely fantastic. Arwen in the movies seemed more accessible (and, er, present) than in the books, but I had some of the same trouble writing her -- she's so perfect she's hard to identify with. Éowyn, with her suicidal misery, frustration, and grim bravery, had more for me to latch on to as a writer.

...How is an Elven princess (well, "princess") a friggin' GOLD-DIGGER. XD I'd sooner call Legolas that, for hanging out with his dwarf BFF. Just wants to get his hands on all that glittery stuff.

Re: Lord of the Rings: Female Characters

[tamsin]

Part of it is probably that I'm still pretty new to the fandom, so I'm still looking for my niches and figuring out which places to avoid. I'd be grateful for pointers if you have them!

Eowyn is my favorite with her strenght and sadness, feeling caged and trying to hang on, slaying the witch king...

Gotta love hobbits, they seem so down-to-earth and enjoying life to its fullest.
I've always had a soft spot for Lobelia Sackville-Baggins. Attacking Saruman's lackeys with an umbrella takes some guts.

I understand Galadriel and Arwen being harder to write (though I like them both), they feel more removed to me than other characters. Though I'd love to read fic that shows Arwen dealing with her mother's fate or settling in in Minas Tirith where she barely knows anyone and many customs and traditions must be different from what she's used too.

Re: Lord of the Rings: Female Characters

[ilthit]

Lobelia's a fantastic character, I love sympathetic portrayals of her that don't sugarcoat OR dehumanize (dehobbitize?) her.

Sympathetic Arwen and Galadriel fic IS out there, I've seen it! I can't give out exact pointers right now, though. :/ It's been a while since I read LotR fic that wasn't something fresh that a friend wrote.

There's also a lot of potential with young Arwen fic. You never see kidfic with elves, do you? Or is it just because I haven't looked?

Re: Lord of the Rings: Female Characters

[tamsin]

Young Arwen fic sounds intriguing. I've only ever seen kidfic with hobbits and men, and since The Hobbit aired some with dwarfs.

Re: Lord of the Rings: Female Characters

[havocthecat]

I definitely need to go on a hunt for good Arwen fic. Maybe I'll ask my friend that's an Arwen/Eowyn shipper for recs.

Re: Lord of the Rings: Female Characters

[tamsin]

Please share them if you get recs!

Re: Lord of the Rings: Female Characters

[stranger]

I think you're right, that the "problem" with Arwen and Galadriel is that they're not much fleshed out on the page, and don't have the usual hooks for fannish interest. Even though monarchs and magic-users are staple characters, the biggest fanfic subjects aren't really ruling or how magic works, but rather action and sex. While Galadriel masterminded a war, she didn't lead the troops. I suppose it's hard to make a general staff meeting look or feel exciting the way a battlefield does. Arwen produced one of the few Elven artifacts that incorporates magic (and if I were braver, I'd want to write about weaving magic into a banner and how Arwen knew it would tip the balance for Aragorn, thus fulfilling her decades of ambition to make him king), but she didn't carry it herself. She shaped the Fourth Age, herself and Aragorn and her descendants.

It takes a lot of development to make either of them a rounded character, and sadly, neither shows any sense of humor, although that doesn't mean they couldn't have it! So, it's hard work to put them into a context and then make them dominate it. Arwen, at least, has an epic love affair crossing racial boundaries -- there's some conflict for a writer to work with.

Eowyn has more substance, thank goodness, and I've seen at least one story that points out she shouldn't be the only shield-maid in Rohan. Surely other daughters of the warrior class (or of Rohan) learned sword-play and horsemanship, and defended their holdings while the men were at war. Half the problem there, and in Tolkien overall, is simply envisioning the female half of the population that has to be there between the lines.

Re: Lord of the Rings: Female Characters

[tamsin]

I've seen quite a bit of Haldir (movie) fic and it's not like he's very fleshed out, so I think that's only a partial explanation. And I don't really see why you couldn't write about sex involving Galadriel and Arwen. Arwen/Aragorn would be an obvious choice.

I do see your point regarding action though. Arwen weaving the banner sounds like a compelling theme and if you ever write that fic I would love to read it! I've also once read an interesting fic with her about the production of the waybread.
Writing Arwen in action scenes: I think it depends on whether you want to keep close to book canon or not. The movie shows her as a skilled rider familiar with weapons, so one could build on that.

Galadriel: doesn't she have quite a lot of backstory? I haven't read The Silmarillion, and Unfinished Tales yet, but judging by what's written here there are things to work with:

- Tolkien describes Galadriel as "the mightiest and fairest of all the Elves that remained in Middle-earth

- According to the older account of her story, sketched by Tolkien in The Road Goes Ever On and used in The Silmarillion, Galadriel was an eager participant and leader in the rebellion of the Noldor and their flight from Valinor: in fact the "only female to stand tall in those days".

- she put hers [her ring]to use in making Lórien a fair refuge for the Nandor in the years after the departure and loss of Amroth and Nimrodel. Galadriel maintained constant vigilance against Sauron and often strove with him in thought. Sauron was said to have great desire to see into her mind, but could not so long as he did not have the One Ring.

- Names: Nerwen (Q. 'ner'=man, 'wen'=maiden, hence manly maiden), referring to her height and strength

- She was proud, strong, and selfwilled, as were all the descendants of Finwë save Finarfin; and like her brother Finrod, of all her kin the nearest to her heart, she had dreams of far lands and dominions that might be her own to order as she would without tutelage. Yet deeper still there dwelt in her the noble and generous spirit of the Vanyar, and a reverence for the Valar that she could not forget.

- She was said to be a match for both the loremasters and athletes of the Eldar.

All points taken from the linked article.

If I compare that to Legolas who gets written frequently I'd say we have at least as much information about her, probably more.

Eowyn ♥ She's one of my favorite characters. Other shieldmaiden in Rohan, now that's an interesting thought. There's a lot do be done with that, and with her training and growing up. And she and Arwen are bound to interact at least sometimes once Eowyn is married to Faramir, aren't they?


Thank you for your reply, I've found it very thought provoking!